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HashiriKata -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Quest

HK, can the poem be read in Vietnamese, can you post a Vietnamese version? Just curious about the
sounds and traces.


Interesting idea but I'll need to do some work on it, so I'll have to see how I get on...

A step further with your idea, I wonder if any Korean speaker here who would read a few lines of
the poem in Hanja? I could then myself try the Vietnamese and Japanese versions so that we can
hear the poem in all 4 languages of the old "漢字圏".



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HashiriKata -



Quote:


Originally Posted by studentyoung

Well, I have no idea on the condition in Taibei, but in China mainland, 1~ 3 year old little
babies are often taught to recite ‘Three Hundred Poems in Tang Dynasty 唐诗三百首’


I remember Semantic Nuance once gave us a link to a Taiwanese site called
唐詩三百首網路教學系統 (http://cls.admin.yzu.edu.tw/300/BIN/ti_brow.asp), which may be
a similar idea. The site is unfortunately down at the moment, so I can't verify the contents.










sjcma -



Quote:

Well, I have no idea on the condition in Taibei, but in China mainland, 1~ 3 year old little
babies are often taught to recite ‘Three Hundred Poems in Tang Dynasty 唐诗三百首’ as
their enlightening education to train their sense of their mother tongue by their parents,
especially in intellectual families, because these poems are well written with beautiful rhymes
and easy enough for babies to read out loud, which are just the right points to help them practice
the pronunciation. A lot of experts in early education say it helps young children to read (no
matter to read out loud or to read in silence) more easily when they start to learn Chinese in
primary school.

My kids (ages 4 and 2) know quite a number of Tang Dynasty poems as well as passages from the
Three Character Classic (三字經). While Taibei is correct is saying that sound and tone is
important to reading poetry, I think modern readings of these Tang Dynasty poems sound great in
either Cantonese or Mandarin and follows very melodic rhyming patterns.










strongneo -

Hi Quest and HK

I can help with Vietnamese version of this poem (長 恨 歌), normally there are 2 types of
translation from Chinese to Vietnamese: translation to the ancient Vietnamese language (called
Hán Việt - Han Viet, which heavily borrows from Mandarin and it is no longer used nowadays) and
the other is translation to modern Vietnamese language.

The name of verse style, title and author of this poem (長 恨 歌) in Vietnamese
詩體: 七 言 古 詩 – Thất Ngôn Trường Thiên (That Ngon Truong Thien)
詩名: 長 恨 歌 – Trường Hận Ca (Truong Han Ca)
作者: 白 居 易 – Bạch Cư Dị (Bach Cu Di)

I will record the modern Vietnamese translation and post later with the Vietnamese translation
script
.










kudra -

a couple of comments on the adsotation of the selection from post #1.

If you cut and paste the passage into the advanced page, and adsotate there are a couple strange
things. Admittedly, feeding tang shi into adso may be ill advised. But I just wanted a quick
conversion to pinyin. Setting output to UTF8 simp which seems to work better yields --

1. 汉皇重色思 comes out as all 1 "word" 汉皇思重色. Notice the 思 has changed position!
There is no english -- just the hanzi

2. 天生 gets stuck together, but with no gloss

3. 回眸一笑百媚生, here 百 gets pinyin of yibai, not bai

4. 恩泽 has no english

5. 日 gets translated as "Japan is". OK, adso is tuned for prose, not tang shi. no big deal.

6. 遊 doesn't get adsotated. It gets converted into 閬� if the output is set to guobiao. Don't
know what's going on here.

If I choose pinyin, instead of adsotate, only the 1st line comes out.
If I also choose output as utf-8 simp then we get



Quote:

hànhuángsī chóngsè qīng guó ， yù yǔ duōnián qiú bùdé ** DANGER **
yáng jiā yǒu nǚ chū cháng chéng ， yǎng zài shēn guī rén wèi shí
tiānshēng lí zhì nán zì qì ， yī cháo xuǎn zài jūn wáng cè
huímóu yī xiào yībǎi mèi shēng ， liù gōng fěndài wú yánsè ** DANGER **
chūn hán cì yù huá qīng chí ， wēnquán shuǐ huá xǐ níng zhī
shì ér fúqǐ jiāo wúlì ， shǐ shì xīn chéng ēnzé shí
yún bìn huā yán jīn bùyào ， fúróng zhàng nuǎn dù chūn xiāo
chūn xiāo kǔ duǎn rì gāo qǐ ， cóngcǐ jūn wáng bù zǎocháo
chéng huān shì yàn wú xiánxiá ， chūn cóng chūn 遊 yè zhuān yè
hòugōng jiālì sānqiān rén ， sānqiān chǒngài zài yīshēn。

again note that 思 si has changed position. hànhuángsī chóngsè qīng guó should be
hànhuáng chóngsè sī qīng guó .

Now for some questions.
In listening to semantic nuance, it sounded to me like 识 in 养在深闺人未识 was pronounced
with 4th tone.

遊 has trouble converting, but if I put it into pleco with the handwriting recognition, it finds
it in the unihan add-in. as you2, wander, roam, travel. Apparently the meaning of 旅游. There is
probably an interesting reason that 游 is used in lvyou, where 遊 seems to have the more
appropriate meaning.

So here is the adsotrans assisted pinyin of the passage, with the few hand corrections.



Quote:

hànhuáng chóngsè sī qīng guó ， yù yǔ duōnián qiú bùdé
yáng jiā yǒu nǚ chū cháng chéng ， yǎng zài shēn guī rén wèi shí
tiānshēng lí zhì nán zì qì ， yī zhāo xuǎn zài jūn wáng cè
huímóu yī xiào bǎi mèi shēng ， liù gōng fěndài wú yánsè
chūn hán cì yù huá qīng chí ， wēnquán shuǐ huá xǐ níng zhī
shì ér fúqǐ jiāo wúlì ， shǐ shì xīn chéng ēnzé shí
yún bìn huā yán jīn bùyào ， fúróng zhàng nuǎn dù chūn xiāo
chūn xiāo kǔ duǎn rì gāo qǐ ， cóngcǐ jūn wáng bù zǎocháo
chéng huān shì yàn wú xiánxiá ， chūn cóng chūn yóu yè zhuān yè
hòugōng jiālì sānqiān rén ， sānqiān chǒngài zài yīshēn。

Now, there were a couple characters where semantic nuance used what againstwind called ancient. I
guess ths is classical pronunciation. Can someone point this out?
I heard
(adsopinyin) -> semantic nuance
chong2se4 -> zhong4 se4
chang2cheng2 -> zhang3 cheng2
wei4 shi2 -> wei4 shi4
li2zhi4 -> li4 zhi3
yi1 chao2 -> yi4 zhao1 (this one I have a handle on, since here 朝 zhao means early morning, as
in 一朝被蛇咬,十年怕井绳， think I read this in the HSK listening course book) So this
is corrected in the pinyin above.
bai2 -> bo2
liu4 gong1 -> lu4 gong1

So before I memorize this, I would like someone to untangle the pronunciation ambiguities above. I
don't mind using classical pronunciation if that is what is involved at some points, but I'd like
to know that is what is going on.

Thanks.










Jose -

Regarding your problems with 遊, this is a traditional character. In simplified Chinese it has
been merged and replaced with 游. Note that in traditional characters, 游 is used in
combinations that have the meaning of "swim, float", like 游泳, whereas 遊 is used with the
meaning of "roam, wander" as in 旅遊.

I think it is not correct for a text in simplified characters to use 遊. My guess is that its
appearance in the original text is probably the result of an automatic conversion from traditional
characters.










trevelyan -

Thank you the notes Kudra -- I'll fix the errors as I can and post a thread in the Adso forum
detailing then. In the future can you post these sorts of things in the Adso forum... I don't
check all of the threads and this would have slipped through. Someone sent a private email about
it though.










Janedcm -

very good!
It will be better if you could read the forth tone more strong ,










kudra -

Thought I would submit to evaluation by (and humiliation at the hands of) our helpful critics. I
have not memorized this passage. Doing so would probably make my reading smoother. Of course,
probably what most people are interested in is pronunciation during spontaneous conversation(Since
I am not podcasting in Chinese any time soon, you will have to use your imagination). Anyway, what
with practicing it a bit, I may end up memorizing the passage, in which case I will submit another
version just to see if it really is smoother.

A couple things – I based the pronunciation of 六宫 off of what I heard in semantic nuance’s
recording, so I pronounced it lu4 gong1. Also, to my ear, she pronounces 百媚生 as bo3 mei4
sheng1, which I tried to pronounce bai3 mei4 sheng1. Perhaps someone could clarify this.

My gut feeling, which isn’t worth much, is that these may be differences between modern and
archaic(perhaps there is a more appropriate term for this) pronunciations.

Also, to my ear she says 人未识 as ren2 wei4 shi4, but I tried to pronounce this as shi2. In
this case I am just taking a chance in breaking with what I hear semantic nuance doing, and going
with the dictionary pronunciation.

Given all that, to paraphrase the original poster, bring on the bitter medicine!

note: I shortened some of the pauses between lines using audacity to get the file under the limit
for uploading, hence the file name changhenge6










Koneko -

Good try!

I think your pace was a bit too fast for 長恨歌
Intonation... Well, I think your pitch was understandable but your stress was rather flat - I
think you should focus on pronouncing some words (normally the first word in a sentence), more
loudly or forcefully than those surrounding it in the same sentence.

Your tone is clear; just need to work on your stress.

K.












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Learn mandarin - Wikipedia Unblocked? - Page 3 -

> Learning Chinese > Chinese Computing and Technology
Wikipedia Unblocked?
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liuzhou -

BBC news is still blocked...



... unless you click here



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imron -

Now being reported on slashdot...



Quote:

'Wikipedia reported on its site that it had received word from multiple users in the country on
that the site had been restored.'"












roddy -

That's quite funny, I expected someone to edit that line out fairly quickly and put in something .
. . well, better. And now it's on the front page of slashdot . . .










hughitt1 -

hehe... at least they didn't link the people to this forum thread



Quote:

The 2004 block referred to came allegedly in response to an article posted on the site as the
country approached the 25th anniversary of the Tienneman Square massacre. The country subsequently
initiated a mass edit of political articles on the site.

Hmm.. I guess the next question is- are they going to allow wikipedia to maintains its NPOV goal
for articles? Or are you going to see more of a "China's POV" on some of the issues.










roddy -

I added a comment to the slashdot article to clarify a couple of things and linked to the forums
thread. However, it was #120 or something and so far has generated a total of 2 visits, at least
one of which was me. So far the server is coping. I also linked to Liuzhou's blog, as he was the
one to spot it first. Danwei is also on the case.










robattoronto -

I'm from Toronto and although I've never been to China, I've never been a big fan of big brother
watching over your shoulder all the time. Yes, there may be some pros and cons to this issue, but
I see way more cons than benefits.

The bottom line is: The government just cannot bring their people to compete at par with other
nations if you shelter their lives to such a degree that you dictate what they can see or cannot
see on the internet. Its like a protective mother not allowing her kid to play with the other kids
in the playground. Her son will hurt himself and do stupid things, but along the way, he'll learn
a lot of valuable lessons.

I was very glad to read that the Chinese government unblocked wiki. I think its a great step
forward. Its not about whether you can already access it through proxy sites, its about a
government willing to negotiate and relaxing its fist. I'd say, don't be too disappointed if they
didn't open the floodgates and allow all websites. It is indeed baby steps for your government.

As I've said, an excellent step forward in the right direction. The Chinese goverment need to
allow their citizens to see the good and the bad of the internet.










imron -



Quote:

It is indeed baby steps for your government.

Just FYI, most people on this forum aren't Chinese, but are non-Chinese interested in studying and
learning about Chinese language and culture. It's not our governments doing anything.

And I don't really think it's relaxing anything, or showing that the Chinese government is somehow
making the steps towards changing its ways. It's just got more fine-grained in how it censors
things, so that non-sensitive articles can be viewed, rather than having a blanket ban on the
domain. So although wikipedia is not completely blocked (as it used to be), you still have no
access to the more "sensitive" web-pages. i.e. the Chinese government still believes it can
dictate what content Chinese internet users can access.

One could argue that it's quite a master stroke by the Chinese government. Previously, many
foreigners in China would complain about government censorship blocking access to a valuable
resource like wikipedia. Mostly these people wouldn't be looking up the stuff that the Chinese
goverment was concerned about, but the government still ended up copping a lot of criticism for it.

Now, that they've unblocked large amounts of wikipedia, you won't have nearly so many voices
crying out that wikipedia is blocked, so they won't be getting criticised as much.

The net result of all of this is that they've silenced a bunch of critics, but are still doing
more or less the same as they always were (i.e. still limiting access to the stuff that they don't
want people seeing).

The cynic might well argue that in terms of protecting free-speech and in terms of the government
changing it ways, things are now worse than they were before.










roddy -

Agree with Imron. It's not a step forward, it's a step nowhere. They've just stopped doing
something pointless that didn't achieve their aims and got a bit of good publicity (or at least
cancelled out some negative publicity). into the bargain.


Quote:

I'm from Toronto and although I've never been to China, I've never been a big fan of big brother
watching over your shoulder all the time.

On behalf of the Chinese people, doubleplus thanks.










Hero Doug -

I actually just read an article (well many) about how China is already starting to influence the
world. MS, Google and Yahoo were the first to go, Skype recently came under critisim, Yahoo also
released information which led to the arrest of two "online dissident writers".

This is all based on censorship issues.










liuzhou -



Quote:

It's not a step forward, it's a step nowhere.

"
I think it is actually a step backwards. They have only opened wikipedia because their techniques
are getting more sophisticated (thanks to companies like Cisco). They no longer need to block
complete domain names as they did in the past. They can now block individual pages.

I can watch the Beatles on Youtube, but try to access the film of the recent T!bet murders by the
border guards. They have blocked one video, not the whole site.

I guess that is why my blog was suddenly unblocked. I suffered from a mass blocking of the entire
domain name. Now they are just waiting to pounce!












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Chinese School - basic pronunciation questions -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
basic pronunciation questions
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leosmith -

I’ve been using online tutorials to learn pronunciations/tones. Unfortunately, there are some
discrepancies. Here are some questions.

1. I’ve heard it’s best to learn the Beijing accent. What do you think?
2. Is ‘c’ pronounced more like ‘ts’ or ‘h’? Different sites have different
pronunciations.
3. Should I use this dictionary http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php
to resolve any accent questions?

Thanks,
Leo



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Gulao -

1. You shouldn't learn the thicker Beijing accent, IMO. It can get to be just as unclear as any
other accent. Ultimately, you should look up the "standard" pronunciations and make sure that each
letter sounds like that. For instance, don't try to pronounce 学生 as 学儿生. You'll still
get a bit of rhoticity at the end of xue, that way, but it will definitely sound more standard.

2. C is pronounded ts. Stop reading whatever source tells you that it is pronounced h.

3. That dictionary seems fine to me.










leosmith -

Thanks Gulao,

1. Actually, I'm just beginning, so I don't know any characters yet. According to the dictionary,
学生(student) = xue2sheng5. For the mispronounced word, which of these do you mean: 学儿生 =
xue2er2sheng5 or xue2er5sheng5?

2. The "c sounds like h" thing came from a syllable table. Do you, or anyone else, know of a site
with a complete syllable table, including tones, that has good pronunciation? I've been using 3
different tables, all connected to
http://www.csulb.edu/~txie/online.htm
One has correct pronunciation (I think), but is all in the first tone. The other two are complete,
but have incorrect pronunciation (I suspect it's a messed up recording). I just want to try to
read the pinyin, and click to hear the answer. These tables are great for that, but I need them to
have correct pronunciation.

3. I love that dictionary, but I notice it locks up when I check a lot of pronunciations. Do you
know of another one that has pronunciation on it? Is there a really popular chinese dictionary
site? There's sort of a master dictionary for Japanese
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/c...wwwjdic.cgi?1C
so I wonder about Chinese.










imron -

This is probably what you're looking for.










leosmith -

Thanks imron. Not bad, but I hope to find something a little faster like one of these:
http://www. /showthread.php?t=12997










Gulao -



Quote:

Actually, I'm just beginning, so I don't know any characters yet. According to the dictionary,
学生(student) = xue2sheng5. For the mispronounced word, which of these do you mean: 学儿生 =
xue2er2sheng5 or xue2er5sheng5?

The second one tends to be romanised as, xuer2sheng5. The 儿 is used in text to indicate
rhoticity, or the r-colored finals, in the Beijing dialect. This romanisation is also used in
yi1dianr3 (一点儿), ger1 (哥儿), wanr2 (玩儿), etc.










Craig -

Living in Beijing and studying in Beijing i still find it easier to understand, and now talk in, a
southern accent. When i started i stuck very dilligently the beijing pronunciation but the longer
i studied the easier it got to stop retroflexing r's.

I'd say start with learning the "standard" way to pronounce words and as you study more and are
exposed to more materials (videos, music, people) from other parts of china one you will find
easier than others to replicate. That is the one you will most likely end up speaking more like.










Yang Rui -

IMHO, it's best to learn standard Putonghua and not try to adopt any kind of regional accent.
There's nothing more cringeworthy than hearing a foreigner attempting to talk in an over-the-top
Beijing accent.

Putonghua has rules about which words take a retroflex "r" and which don't. In Beijing, the "r"
sound is added to words that technically should not have an"r" ending in Putonghua. In the south
of China, the "r" sound is left off words that should have an "r" ending. Neither is standard
Putonghua.

Unfortunately, the noble goal of trying to learn standard Putonghua is undermined by the fact that
almost no one speaks it in daily life (although as it is based on the Beijing dialect, i think
more people in the north of China speak standard Putonghua). So if you learn by talking to Chinese
people, you will undoubtedly pick up their non-standard habits, and may end up with a slight
regional accent.

Ultimately, the aim is to be understood by as many people as possible, and i think aiming for
standard Putonghua is the best way to achieve this. Which i suppose is a roundabout way of
agreeing with Gulao that you should not learn a heavy Beijing accent.










leosmith -



Quote:

IMHO, it's best to learn standard Putonghua and not try to adopt any kind of regional accent.

Ok, I'm convinced. So how do I make sure my learning materials are "standard" Putonghua?










roddy -

All learning materials - ie textbooks, associated recordings, etc are going to be standard
Putonghua, almost by definition. If you are using stuff like movies, TV shows, etc for study
purposes you might want to check what kind of accents they feature, but you'll have to take those
one by one.












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Chinese Studies - "12 Golden Rules of Mastering Chinese"? -

> Learning Chinese > Resources and General Study Issues
"12 Golden Rules of Mastering Chinese"?
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Nibble -

http://www.thelanguageexpert.com/12goldenrules/

It's a 222-page ebook by someone called Bryan Todd. Has anyone read it? Is it worth the money?



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Shadowdh -

I have read it and its really not worth the money... I found that from 222 pages only 50 or so had
anything worth reading (and most of those were amusing-ish anecdotes) as most of it is filled with
the "you can acheive this you are the language man" type of drivel and the rest is mostly common
sense type stuff... having said that he does have some very good insights into learning the
language... but just not 222 pages worth...










roddy -

Haven't read it, but I'm inherently dubious of ebooks - barriers to publishing are way too low -
and particularly when there is no 'sample chapter' or similar provided. Are there any reviews /
comments on non-affiliated sites?

From what Shadowdh has said, it sounds like bits of language learning advice with lots of
motivational-type stuff. I wouldn't bother.

Roddy










Nibble -

That is pretty much what I was afraid of. The "free 5-day e-mail course" was mostly just common
sense, and the only thing it promised the book would have was a list of the 600 most common hanzi
and the most common compounds they're in, but I'm sure that's freely available on the internet.










Shadowdh -

The free trial was most of the useful stuff from the book by memory... there may be one or two
other tidbits of info but not much...










ocpaul20 -



Quote:

bits of language learning advice with lots of motivational-type stuff.

well, I need lots of motivational stuff :-)

Why is that a bad thing?










Shadowdh -

Because its given in the "hallelujah" type of evangelical style... its pretty much all that and
you have to pay for it... you would be better off spending the money on a book and actually
studying... truly it does have one or two good points on how to study Chinese but the dross is far
too much compared to the nuggets...










self-taught-mba -



Quote:

list of the 600 most common hanzi and the most common compounds they're in, but I'm sure that's
freely available on the internet.

And they are. Recently I found someone selling the list of 1000 most used characters as the
"secret" when they are freely available many places.










David W Jackson -

If the testimonials are to be believed, maybe this is worth a pop. Anyone already taken the
plunge? Feedback? Worth 30 dollars? http://www.masterchinesefaster.com/12rules/










roddy -

Merging - different url, same 'product'

Roddy












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Alissia -

Hi, I'm a student majoring Enlish. I want to find a native Enlish speaker as my language partner,
and I can improve your Chinese in return.I study in CUGB(China University of Geosciences)near
Wudaokou and across from BLCU(Beijing Language and Culture University). So anyone who studies in
BLCU or live near Wudaodou can contact me at
celeryfar@hotmail.com





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Alissia -

Sorry I have given the wrong Email .It should be celeryfar@hotmail.com












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Speak Chinese - Improving writing -

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Improving writing
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outcast -

I'm looking for ways to improve my now non-existant Chinese writing skills. Does anyone have any
suggestions?



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Jake Perry -

250 Essential Chinese Characters for Everyday Use
Volume 1: $22.95; Volume 2: $22.95
Buy Together Today: $29.84
www.amazon.com

i highly recommend these books
i cut mine into the 25 lessons
so that i can photocopy the pages
and keep the originals as masters.










skylee -

Do you mean writing chinese characters or writing like essays/stories in chinese?

Practice makes perfect, right?










doumeizhen -

In the same boat, and the universal answer seems to be: elbow grease.

I think even if you are learning to write characters as opposed to stories, find short text
samples and copy those, repeating characters/passages as necessary. This will help you (ok, us!)
with both the characters themselves and with grammar and style.










xiaojiang216 -

I was curious about this as well during my first few years of studies, and I learned a very useful
word.

反复练习

"fan3 fu4 lian4 xi2" means "repeated practice". Also, it also takes time for you to become
accustomed and become comfortable with the Chinese characters. Starting out, you might want to
look at any texts that you come across in Chinese (whether or not you can read it). Try to write
in Chinese whenever you have the chance (why not write the shopping list in Chinese for a
change?). Small things like this will help you get comfortable, and as your studies progress, it
will become clearer.

NOTE: This is easier said than done.










td36285n -

Practicing your basics makes perfect characters.

For example, write each character left to right, top to bottom. My first Chinese teacher
practically forced me to write like this, so now that every time I write a character, including
the ones I've never seen before, I don't have to second guess if my strokes are in the correct
direction and order. Hope that helps.










Jake Perry -

once you are well into
the first 500 characters...
get a buddha board
and buy a nicer brush.

keep a digital camera handy
to preserve your correct zì,
you only have 10-15 seconds
before they disappear:










outcast -

Thanks guys. The issue I have is that, I learn a character, I can read the character later, but if
someone gives me a blank piece of paper and tells me to write the character I can't remember it.

Plus I also do not really know the grammer particularly well (like when should I use 把
sentences).










Jake Perry -

it's supposed to be easy
to recognize the familiar.
this is why multiple choice
is easier than essay questions.

pacing yourself might be the answer
i'm only learning 10 zì a week
and i can generate all the zì
that i can recognize easily.












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adc18 -

I want to find a chinese roommate. Does anyone know of a website (in Chinese) where chinese people
might go to look for roommates? Thanks!



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Chinese Studies - DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform - Page 2 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform
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gato -



Quote:

The only thing that surprises me, is that the difference in numbers is that big so early on.

Yes, Chinese teachers and parents are slavedrivers. We had to memorize the multiplication table in
first grade, too.



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yingguoguy -



Quote:

So the Chinese learn more characters the first two years than Japanese children learn during their
first six years.

As a corollary it's worth noting how much more hanzi intensive the standard Chinese exam (HSK) is
compared with the Japanese (JLPT) one.

JLPT
Level 4: 100
Level 3: 300
Level 2: 1000
Level 1: 2000

HSK
Beginner: 1600
Elementary/Intermediate: 2200
Advanced: 2900

(This is right isn't it? Lists A+B for Beginner, +C from Elem/Int and +D for advanced)

Of course it's apples and oranges, but in terms of listening and grammar the HSK Beginner is
nowhere near being between Levels 2 and 1 of the JLPT.

(Actually looked at a JLPT paper yesterday, and was seriously hindered by them writing common
kanji words using Hirigana. Make's my brain hurt trying to read it after studing Chinese all year.)

If I've understood it correctly the Z.T. system Moser describes would be pretty much the
Kanji/Kana mix that Japan has; once children have mastered hiragana they can write anything they
can think, and can add kanji as they learn them to add extra sophistication.
While most Japanese would be against abolishing kanji, as much as Chinese, it also gives them the
choice of writing particularly rare or difficult characters in kana.

It's a pity that hanzi and pinyin don't fit together on the page very nicely, as I've often
thought it would be easier, at least on the foreign learner, to mix new words in an alphabet, with
the more common hanzi, allowing them to focus more on pronounication during the early stages of
learning.










malinuo -

In defence of the Japanese student, one should perhaps point out that a Japanese kanji contains
more "noise" than a Chinese hanzi. A Chinese reader doesn't have to learn several onyomi and
kunyomi for every character. The phonetic elements obviously don't work in Japanese kunyomi. In
addition the phonetic elements are less obvious for the student even with the onyomi. This is
because there usually are several onyomi, and there may be difficulties associating for example a
go-on pronunciation with a kan-on pronunciation for a different kanji with the same phonetic
element.










charlescpp -



Quote:

An 11 year old is already in the 5th grade... I think a 5th grader can read and understand all
non-technical non-classical texts. The intense character learning period is really between 1st and
3rd grades.

an 11 years old student usually knows 1000+ characters, so he can read most novells.










Josh-J -

His conclusions are why I really wish pinyin would die. Sure I am not chinese, so no matter how
much I try and learn chinese I do not have some inate connection with the language - and sure,
pinyin makes learning chinese easier for pretty much everyone.
However my opinion is biased very heavily in favour of retaining characters; not for any
especially logical reasons I suppose, but the idea of pinyin supplanting characters altogether is
something I really don't like thinking about (but of course that means that I do think about it )

I will say that I've only so far read his conclusions, and not the rest of the article; but those
conclusions do seem to make sense, and personally I do think its likely that characters will be
displaced by pinyin or similar actually fairly soon (as in, a generation or something). Not that
I'm an expert of course.
One thing that especially annoys me is that there are other systems (stroke based) that do not use
pinyin and are obviously far more character-oriented. Not only that, but they are pretty efficient
from what I've heard. And yet the vast majority of people use pinyin (since hong kong and taiwan
are not exactly comparable in population to the mainland).
It would be interesting actually to see how much more efficient pinyin input would be if one did
not have to choose from a list of options to get the right characters; obviously if characters
were abandoned altogether this would be unnecessary. But I suppose if I don't want characters
abolished I shouldn't be pointing out benefits

But it seems to me that if the IME most used in the mainland was stroke-based, the potential for
replacing characters would be much smaller. Its such a shame

As a non-chinese outsider I do feel like it should be none of my business, but still I am annoyed
by pinyin's growing use as an actual alternative to characters.










djwebb2004 -

I know lots of Chinese people who are greatly offended by this sort of thing - foreign professors
who specialize in arguing that the Chinese should abandon their writing system! As Victor someone
or other argues on the pinyin.info site, the Chinese could abandon characters, but would have to
change their writing style. Chengyu that depend for intelligibility on seeing which characters are
used, would be out of the door. But any script reform which depends, not just on changing the
script, but on enforcing a change in writing styles as well is going too far, is it not? It is
straying into an area that does not really belong to the subject of script reform per se.










djwebb2004 -

Another point, can anyone here read the Chinese written in the Soviet Dungan script at
http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/dungan.html? This is the template for the Victor Mair/De
Francis thesis, but I would argue that it is not a good advert for their cause. In the case of the
word for tobacco mentioned half way down, the Dungan word "khanyan", which is 旱烟 in Chinese
characters. But the Dungan dictionary has to explain the word to the Dungan readers, but saying
"this khan means dry". In other words, in the end, understanding a pinyinized script in Chinese,
you are still linked to characters and their meanings. The dictionary has to tell you, "this khan
is 旱 and not some other han".

By the way, an article written all in pinyin in honour of John De Francis is at
http://www.sino-platonic.org/pinyin_text/hanzi.pdf. This article violates the Mair/De Francis idea
that Chinese could be written in pinyin **without tonemarks** just as Soviet Dungan is. If that's
true, why does this PDF have tonemarks?










self-taught-mba -



Quote:

This article violates the Mair/De Francis idea that Chinese could be written in pinyin **without
tonemarks** just as Soviet Dungan is. If that's true, why does this PDF have tonemarks?

look at your words again:


Quote:

This article violates the Mair/De Francis idea that Chinese could be written in pinyin **without
tonemarks** just as Soviet Dungan is. If that's true, why does this PDF have tonemarks?"

Just b/c it could be doesn't mean that it should be. There is no "violation". And even if the
article is written with tone marks does not violate a position that pinyin could be written
without. Want proof?

1. When's the last time a Chinese person sends you directions or the name of a place written in
pinyin in a text message. They never indicate the tones, it drives me ape ! I always have to
message back and ask them what are the tones.

2. Similarly if you ask a Chinese person to write down the name for something or a random
sentence, invariably the majority of them will leave out the tones. To them it is so natural. (and
I fear for far too many of them, they get the tones wrong if they try. I see it all the time. Then
they turn to their colleague and ask "2nd or 3rd tone?" Then a shrug and they say well I just know
how to say it. And of course, b/c they had natural aquisition, where it doesn't matter what tone
it is they know if it "sounds right".)

3. Finally, look at the maps and the road signs-- again no tone markers.

I personally think it should be written with the tones, but for the Chinese they really don't need
it. But for poor me: I really do need it and it drives me crazy. Tones benefit us more than them
and I think people look past that. And DeFrancis, Mair, and Moser for all the blame that falls
them for "meddling in the Chinese peoples' language" deserve some credit for that. I think they
realize the Chinese don't really need the tones, so why add that burden for them just because it
benefits the foreigners.? So I think that refutes what many believe that they just want it
tailored for us outsiders (who really need pinyin tone marks)

On to your second point:

Can you actually read the article? Maybe not it is Soviet Dungan not Chinese after all. It is
merely presented as an example to draw "implications" from But anyone who knows Chinese can
obviously read the article with the pinyin tone marks that you linked to.



Quote:

but saying "this khan means dry". In other words, in the end, understanding a pinyinized script in
Chinese, you are still linked to characters and their meanings.

Yes what's the problem with this? Is this no different than if you are to learn the word in
Chinese orally? If you didn't know which gan1 it is you would have to ask and they would simply
link it to another word that you know like da4 bian4 gan1 zao4 (constipated).

In fact listening to Chinese oral conversation you constantly have them linking to something else
whenever a new word is introduced or to remove ambiguity.

And actually the same is true for some people that learn English by learning the roots of words.
(Or for native speakers expanding their vocabulary) "Is the sub in submarine the same as that in
subversion or substandard etc..." (very basic example but you get the point)

In fact, when I expand vocabulary for people I have taught I often use the root of words and link
them in English. Really no different. The root of an English word is a piece, just like a
character is a piece of a multi-character word. Having to explain the pieces by linking it to
other words in which they are used is not necessarily a bad thing (either way understanding is
reached) and one that I would proffer helps to reinforce previously learned words and expand
vocabulary at the same time.










atitarev -

Apart from difference between Chinese and Japanese usage of kanji/hanzi, I think learning Chinese
in China is more disciplined and focused on actually learning to read them as quickly as possible,
there's little distraction. There is some inconsistency too, as a lot of words are often spelled
both in kanji and hiragana, the latter is easier to read and write, of course but then you don't
remember when it's written in kanji.

In Japan it's easy to fall back to hiragana and there is a lot of material available with a
phonetical guide in hiragana - eg. comics. In China pinyin is not as popular as pure hiragana
texts (or kanji and hiragana next to them) in Japan, so it's more difficult for kids and foreign
learners to find such readers but as I said before, you have no choice but learn characters and
you'll feel the benefit immediately.

I already took part in the language reform possibilities, I don't think it takes you anywhere. I
just think it's possible but for many reasons it's very unlikely to happen. Besides, this topic
seems to irritate native Chinese speakers, so I'd give it a break.










self-taught-mba -



Quote:

I already took part in the language reform possibilities, I don't think it takes you anywhere.

Oh but I think it can. Once you realize that Chinese can be done without the characters it has
vast implications for the 30 million people trying to learn the language worldwide. It dispels the
myth that you must know characters (I knew about 2000 words before I first learned a single
character). Not only does this make the language more accessible to current learners, it opens the
door of possibility and strengthens the appeal to the rest of the people that are interested but
are unwilling because they're intimidated by the characters. Thus it can possibly help to
perpetuate and spread the appeal and popularity of learning Chinese by removing barriers to
learning.



Quote:

I just think it's possible but for many reasons it's very unlikely to happen.

I agree with this. There's too much Chinese pride attached to it. I think the important part is
demonstrating what can be done and how we can take from that as learners of the language.



Quote:

this topic seems to irritate native Chinese speakers, so I'd give it a break.

Yes it does irritate them. As I mentioned before just remind them that Mao wanted to eliminate the
characters altogether

Furthermore, why stymie academic discussion and engage in self-censorship just because they don't
like it? Especially here?

I read of a professor from another country (I don't remember which but I want to say India)
advocating for English reform particularly in regards to spelling. After seeing the perfection of
pinyin I tend to agree. The fact of this professor was from another country does not invalidate
his theory that the rules of spelling in English need to be simplified less "random" and with
fewer exceptions.

If someone has made it their life's work to study a particular topic and has the qualifications,
where they come from should not matter.
Have you ever met foreign professor of American history or Western culture or English for example?
I guarantee they know more about it than the average American or us will ever know. Should we tell
that person that they have no right to comment on Western culture or English language issues?
Imagine this: "I'm sorry Professor Lee you're not American and not white, you have no place to
comment or research about English language issues. I don't care if you have a Phd in English or
whatever"???

To ignore one's theory and research (despite having specialized knowledge from unique
qualifications) simply because of their race is the essence of racism.












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Free Chinese Lesson - German Speakers! A question - Page 2 -

> Extras > Other cultures and language
German Speakers! A question
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Page 2 of 2 < 1 2






doumeizhen -

Hi Horas- Thank you for the correction. I always use dict.leo.org, but it didn't have the specific
reference. I'll make sure to add the other one as well. You can never have enough German
dictionaries!

Danqi - Thank you for the correction correction!

My Professor used to joke that all unanswerable questions should become sinological study. Who is
up for doing a sinological study on the history of the term and its modern use?

芳芳 - Remember now, no double letters!



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Lugubert -

For a comparison:
Klassenzeichen (Dictionary DDR 1961, Grammar DDR 1961)
Radikal(liste) (Dictionary advertisement 1999)










atitarev -



Quote:

Posted by 芳芳:
ya das stimmt...

ja, das stimmt...










horas -

*

Yeah, the terms which are practically used:

Radikale / Klassenzeichen / Wurzelzeichen

-












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HSK - How important do you consider writing for a foreigner? - Page 5 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
How important do you consider writing for a foreigner?
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錢 勇 龍 -

I live in Taiwan, teaching English. I have officially started Chinese classes about 5 months ago.
3 years ago, I just studied Chinese Characters, not knowing the words at all, just going through
the motions. I had a kinda love/hate for characters. Now that I am really being taught by a
teacher and reading a decent Textbook, I find my reading and overall comprehension is improving a
lot. Had I gone to Chinese classes 3 years ago...... I would be pretty fluent. However, 3 years
ago, I was too afraid to commit to spending the necessary time/money and effort necessary for
learning Chinese. That said, the general writing practice I did 'on and off' over the last 3 years
has brought my writing speed fast enough as to not waste much time when the teacher is giving me
additional vocabulary. I am starting to collect about 50 extra pages in a notebook jam-packed with
extra vocabulary that I was able to write in class time aside from the regular course material.
Since, most all students at my school are still reading pinyin or zhuying within the first year, I
am personally happy that I have that freedom to do that and that I am studying traditional
characters from the onset. To address the topic, no it isn't necessary. In fact it is MUCH more
time intensive, but I like the artistic aspect of excellent written characters- so I must be the
exception... maybe a little strange?



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magores -

For myself, I consider writing Chinese to be almost as important as speaking and reading.

I'm one of those people that can only remember (learn) things if I write them down. I can see
something 100 times, but I won't remember it until I write it myself.

I don't know the names of the strokes (because I haven't tried to learn them), but if you show me
a character, I can tell you the stroke order. Just the way my brain works, I guess.

As far as reading... I know a reasonable amount of characters. (more than 3 digits, much less than
4). But I find that reading a newspaper is very hard. I buy the paper, sit down with my
dictionaries, and try to figure out the headlines. So, even though I don't know the characters, I
can find them. The problem is the actual meaning.

The way words are abbreviated, the meanings that aren't shown in any of my dictionaries, the fact
that some characters have many meanings, some of which are completely opposite of each other. It
can be frustrating. But, I refuse to give up.

If I may rant for a second....

I see many lists of "The 500 most common Chinese Characters." Screw the common characters. Where
is a list of the most common "words"?!

And, dictionaries... My Oxford E-C, C-E Dictionary has tons of characters/words. So do my others.
But, most of the characters/words/meanings aren't actually in use. It's too much information. What
is a good dictionary that only show the most common characters/words with the most common
usage/meaning?

okay.. done ranting.










roddy -



Quote:

I see many lists of "The 500 most common Chinese Characters." Screw the common characters. Where
is a list of the most common "words"?!

And, dictionaries... My Oxford E-C, C-E Dictionary has tons of characters/words. So do my others.
But, most of the characters/words/meanings aren't actually in use. It's too much information. What
is a good dictionary that only show the most common characters/words with the most common
usage/meaning?

HSK word lists and dictionaries are the answer - that limits it to (if I recall correctly) 8822
words, divided into four lists. While they're not strictly divided by frequency, it's a fair bet
that those in the earlier lists are more common. A decent HSK dictionary . . . let me check my
book cellar . . ah, here it is, under the fine wines . . . such as the HSK 词典, ISBN
7-5617-2078-5 . . . will tell you what level words are, and you can then decide how much attention
you need to pay to them. That one is all in Chinese though, and to be honest I never really used
it much so can't really recommend it.

There are also character lists for each of the four levels, so you could work through that and
then you'll know the characters for the word list of the corresponding level.

There's an excel spreadsheet somewhere on here with word frequency info, but as it was compiled
from Xinhua news articles rather than real language it needs to be used with caution.












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gougou -



Quote:

well.... lets just say, gougou, that youd be less free to do what you want both politically and
personally as a chinese citizen.

I'm not sure about this. Judging by freedom of speech, it seems to me that a Chinese in the UK has
more rights than a Briton in China (Have both of them distribute FLG flyers to find out )



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imron -

This is making an invalid comparison. To make a fair comparison, you'd have to put the scenario
something like:

Chinese person handing FLG fliers out in China.
vs
Briton handing FLG fliers out in China.

and then

Chinese person handing FLG fliers out in Britain
vs
Briton handing FLG fliers out in Britain.

Both groups fair just as well when handing out fliers in Britain, but I think the Briton is
probably going to end up the better of the two in the first scenario.










md1101 -

yeah im trying to say what imron just did

gougou, you're not wrong. we're both looking at this in different ways. i just see it this way:

- A Briton handing out flg flyers in china would be deported... a chinese doing the same in china
could be locked up and never heard from again.

- A Chinese citizen has trouble attaining visa's to various countries around the world. I know its
been very hard to try and get my gf over here! (australia)

-Yes, a chinese citizen would be free to hand out flg flyers in briton but anyone is. the task of
the chinese citizen is to get to britain which isnt so easy. so IF lungyan manages to get a
british pemanent resident visa then i guess it should be easy to get to england. but he wouldnt
want to do anything bad in britain that china might hear about or he can expect to not to be
allowed to leave china again when he goes back there.

all in all he will lose some freedoms.










lungyan -

Thanks everyone I shall reply to each of you here.

novemberfog: well i need to be a permanent resident i don't intend to live anywhere else. there's
things i need to do that definitely will require citizenship.

geraldc: i understand that but i need permanent citizenship.

mickdriscoll: i know, i wouldn't hesitate to revoke uk citizenship. i don't think the restrictions
will affect me too much. the second part sounds interesting but i don't ever need to return to the
uk and wouldn't care to. yeah i really do need it i've got things to do in life that will require
it.

gougou: thanks i will check that link out.

Thank you all for the help so far.










geraldc -

Now you've peaked my interest. What on earth do you want to do that would require citizenship?
You're not another person who wants to join the PLA are you?










self-taught-mba -



Quote:

Now you've peaked my interest. What on earth do you want to do that would require citizenship?
You're not another person who wants to join the PLA are you?

Oh NO!!!! Not that thing again! I was worried it was gonna go there.










mr.stinky -

gougou.....how am i gonna get permanant residency also? i may get married and stay
five years, but i have no job. i'm retired on my savings/investments, so no stable income.
i'm not 60 yet, and not a dependant. at least i have no record of being convicted of
breaking the law. so do i have to join the pla to become a citizen?










lungyan -

Haha no not at all nothing like that. It is for legitimate reasons. Heh. Yeah it seems so
difficult to obtain such a simple thing that will be of no harm to anyone but great benefit to me.
It can't be so impossible can it?










liuzhou -



Quote:

i may get married and stay five years, but i have no job. i'm retired on my savings/investments,
so no stable income.

Can you tell me what sort of reply would be given to a Chinese person desiring permanent residence
in your country who applied on that basis?










flameproof -

>I need to get Chinese citizenship and right of abode in Hong Kong.

The 2 are not related.

>Chinese citizenship

That's from China and probably impossible to obtain. There are only very few cases were it was
given out to foreigners.

>right of abode in Hong Kong.

Right of abode you reach after residing 7 years in HK. With RoA you can apply for "Permanent
Residency". Then you could apply for a "HK SAR" passport. To actually get the passport you would
have to give up your UK nationality.

The HK Passport brings you few (if any) advantages. The only thing I can think of is that you can
get a 10 year China visa (or "home" permit - wue heung jin). As a Permanent Resident with a
foreign passport you can apply only for up to 3 years.

That is really the very only advantage I can think of. And remember that you would need to apply a
visa for almost every country you plan to travel to in advance.












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Forum: Reading and Writing 3rd June 2003, 03:03 PM

Replies: 44

Learning strategies for Chinese characters

Views: 9,791

Posted By roddy


The key to learning vocabulary in any language is...

The key to learning vocabulary in any language is to learn it in meaningful groups - this could be
'food words', 'characters with the heart radical', 'word to describe people', etc - and to learn
it...



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Forum: Reading and Writing 31st January 2006, 11:12 PM

Replies: 29

Ugly in places

Views: 2,735

Posted By Lu


Lugubert: I do not know, but I suppose the...

Lugubert: I do not know, but I suppose the characters not used outside of HK are for Cantonese. In
which case they probably are used outside of HK, wherever people want to write Cantonese.

Another...



Forum: Reading and Writing 29th January 2006, 01:26 AM

Replies: 29

Ugly in places

Views: 2,735

Posted By Lu


Cantonese (and Taiwanese, and other dialects as...

Cantonese (and Taiwanese, and other dialects as well, I suppose) can be written with Chinese
characters. People can use the characters used for writing standard Mandarin, and for dialects
some...



Forum: Reading and Writing 19th December 2005, 09:54 PM

Replies: 29

Ugly in places

Views: 2,735

Posted By Lu


Som characters large and some small, I think...

Som characters large and some small, I think that'll look much more unbalanced. I actually like
the difference. Like the name 劉坤一, I think it's beautiful how it has the shape of a >

And that...



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Forum: Reading and Writing 4th June 2005, 03:48 AM

Replies: 63

Is this true?

Views: 6,809

Posted By TSkillet


It's hard to tell nowadays in China because kids...

It's hard to tell nowadays in China because kids are taught in Mandarin now in school even if they
speak cantonese or another dialect outside of school.

I'll use my personal examples - my dad...



Forum: Reading and Writing 3rd June 2005, 01:02 AM

Replies: 63

Is this true?

Views: 6,809

Posted By TSkillet


Perhaps it's too difficult to use western...

Perhaps it's too difficult to use western concepts of dialect and language to apply to
particularily asian languages - specifically chinese.

I often find it's easier to think that people write in...



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Search took 0.07 seconds; generated 3 minute(s) ago. Search: Posts Made By: atitarev

Forum: Reading and Writing 11th January 2007, 10:13 AM

Replies: 71

DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Views: 5,389

Posted By atitarev


Re: DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Armenia and Georgia never changed their original scripts. Tadjikistan still uses Cyrillic.



Forum: Reading and Writing 24th December 2006, 11:56 AM

Replies: 71

DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Views: 5,389

Posted By atitarev


Re: DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Quest:

Quest, I admit that being more disciplined in learning/using just characters you, Chinese achieve
better and faster results at mastering them. However, I think it would be great if there...



Forum: Reading and Writing 15th December 2006, 01:14 PM

Replies: 71

DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Views: 5,389

Posted By atitarev


Re: DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Comics (manga) and anime are read/watched by adults or at least adolescents. They are usually
supplied with furigana (hiragana written next to kanji) and subtitles in anime often have them.
I'd say I...



Forum: Reading and Writing 15th December 2006, 06:07 AM

Replies: 71

DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Views: 5,389

Posted By atitarev


Re: DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

What you're suggesting, Roddy, has been happening in Japan. Before people achieve full literacy in
kanji, they use just hiragana. Hiragana books are very popular in Japan with kids, and there is
also...



Forum: Reading and Writing 14th December 2006, 06:21 PM

Replies: 71

DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Views: 5,389

Posted By atitarev


Re: DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

My colleague is a Chinese immigrant from Xi'an. He watched some videos with interviews with people
from Dungan. They all tried to speak in their pure dialect (not mixing too many foreign words).
He...



Forum: Reading and Writing 13th December 2006, 06:16 PM

Replies: 71

DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Views: 5,389

Posted By atitarev


Re: DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Djwebb2004:


No need to change, see below.
self-taught-mba:

If Korean borrowed ambiguity from Chinese by borrowing a huge number of homophones and Koreans use
Chinese characters to disambiguate the...



Forum: Reading and Writing 13th December 2006, 05:08 AM

Replies: 71

DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Views: 5,389

Posted By atitarev


Re: DeFrancis article on Chinese writing reform

Apart from difference between Chinese and Japanese usage of kanji/hanzi, I think learning Chinese
in China is more disciplined and focused on actually learning to read them as quickly as
possible,...



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Forum: Reading and Writing 29th November 2007, 07:34 AM

Replies: 77

I Hate Hanzi

Views: 8,444

Posted By Quest


Re: I Hate Hanzi

Not in need of any, thank you.



Forum: Reading and Writing 25th November 2007, 03:04 AM

Replies: 77

I Hate Hanzi

Views: 8,444

Posted By Quest


Re: I Hate Hanzi

Or bring a Chinese interpreter?



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Forum: Reading and Writing 9th April 2004, 11:03 PM

Replies: 83

an article talking about simplified and traditional chinese

Views: 5,868

Posted By Quest


I support simplification, but there should be...

I support simplification, but there should be room for discussion on how we simplify each
character.



Reading speed is definitely not a problem. however, I tend to agree that some strokes are...



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Forum: Reading and Writing 4th February 2004, 10:44 PM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


Anyone can show us some light on an idiom...

Anyone can show us some light on an idiom starting with 母?
Not easy one



Forum: Reading and Writing 4th February 2004, 12:55 AM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


being involved into a embarrassing situation that...

being involved into a embarrassing situation that each of the available options would lead to
blame, as 里外不是人 li3 wai4 bu2 shi4 ren2,

Hope this is a qualified answer



Forum: Reading and Writing 4th February 2004, 12:51 AM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


Performing something incredibly well, here we...

Performing something incredibly well, here we come 出神入化 chu1 shen2 ru4 hua4



Forum: Reading and Writing 3rd February 2004, 11:59 PM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


Brothers and sisters love each other, as 骨肉情深...

Brothers and sisters love each other, as 骨肉情深 gu\/ rou\ qing/ shen-



Forum: Reading and Writing 1st February 2004, 11:13 PM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


Sorry about that Barbara. I didn't notice...

Sorry about that Barbara. I didn't notice it.

Good transformation! I believe that's the very value of this game.

In this modernized planet people can hardly find enough place to live freely and...



Forum: Reading and Writing 1st February 2004, 09:46 PM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


planing the overall strategy while being far away...

planing the overall strategy while being far away from the place where the strategy is applied, as
运筹帷幄
Here comes a challenging one, good luck.



Forum: Reading and Writing 1st February 2004, 09:16 PM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


well, this one cost me some time. I got it. I...

well, this one cost me some time.
I got it.
I need to be a 能工巧匠(very competent worker/craftsman) on the art of Chinese language to
hammer out the answer for Barbara.
How about that?



Forum: Reading and Writing 1st February 2004, 08:39 PM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


Do whatever you want through 随心所欲

Do whatever you want through 随心所欲



Forum: Reading and Writing 1st February 2004, 07:59 PM

Replies: 292

Chinese Idiom Rally II.

Views: 13,535

Posted By michaelcrm


The most anti-traditional performance on marriage...

The most anti-traditional performance on marriage as 人尽可夫



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